phosphates 3000

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  • Last Post 27 August 2022
smallpool posted this 25 July 2022

okay for all i've read about phoshpates is not a big deal, i'm beginning to accept that my reading of 3,000 is too high and its just negating any shock i'm adding to the pool..   in one day my FCL goes from 4 (after shock) back down to 0.15

a year ago i used the Phoshfree, but admittedly didnt clean the filter after i was hoping for the best.  when closed my pool last fall i cleaned the filters and was hoping this year phoshpates would be better.  Its not.    i've learned so much about pool chemistry and "flashpoints" with chlorine this season.   my last frontier now is gonig to be tackling this phoshpates issue.   So really i gotta clean the filter. then add the Phosfree then clean the filter AGAIN after it runs?

I've tried everything else to hold the FCL, got the CYA up got the PH in zone..    my water is always crystal clear i just cant keep the FCL up..   after the shock wears off the CCL goes up (i can smell it).. i learned how to take care of that.   i have a 10,000 pool, SWG, vinyl liner..   any tips on how to properly apply the Phosfree?    I feel like this my final frontier to learn.   thank you.!

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JCMC70 posted this 27 August 2022

Oh my lord i think we got this licked.   Since my last post of 10 FCL it got to 7 the next day.   i turned the SWG back on.   the next day was 6 and today it is 4.   In all the days readings the CCL is below 0.5   i think we licked it!

PH 7.6
CYA 52
ALK 94
HARD 174


I'm glad things are working out.



My PHOS is still 3,000  (should i focus on that next season or just leave it alone?)


As I said earlier, I never worry about phosphate levels. Phosphate levels are important only if there are organics in the water to feed off the phosphates. My advice would be to concentrate on keeping the proper amount of sanitizer in the water to kill any organics. We have to keep sanitizer in our water. Proper water sanitation will control the organics,free chlorine and combined chlorines. If those things are controlled there really isn't any point in spending the extra money to buy expensive phosphate treatments.

 


here is something curious..  my SpinTouch says my SALT = 2892.  My Aquarite control panel says 3,600 (yesterday said 3,500).  Ive never had that wide a gap of SALT (and the salt went up on the aquarite thats impossible).   i think my Aquarite salt reading is bad.


I really can't help you here. By now I'm sure you're aware that I'm not a big fan of digital water testing equipment. Maybe the Aquarite panel is giving you a faulty reading or maybe the SpinTouch is giving inaccurate readings. If the SpinTouch can be recalibrated maybe that will help. Maybe someone at Aquarite can help with the control panel


  

why do i care about the salt?  because i'm running the SWG at 70% and i'm dropping slowly from 7..6..5..4..  so i either need to turn up the SWG a little or add more salt if the 2,800 reading is correct?


I agree. Now that you have turned the SWG back on your SWG is going to need to maintain a free chlorine level of 4 ppm. The CYA level is very important in helping the SWG generate enough chlorine. Most experts recommend a minimum  CYA level of 60 ppm for SWG pools.

 I would recommend that you get the CYA level to 60 ppm. If you have any DiChlor left, 21 ounces would raise the CYA level in your pool to 60 ppm. It will also raise the free chlorine by nearly 8 ppm.

Once you have adjusted the CYA level, check the free chlorine reading. Leave the SWG set where it is and check the free chlorine level daily. If the free chlorine level stays high, turn the SWG off and let the chlorine level drift down to 4 ppm. Then turn the SWG back on. Check the free chlorine level over the next  few days. If the free chlorine level stays at 4 ppm you are good to go. If it drops below 4 ppm, I would turn the SWG % up until it maintains 4 ppm.


 
Jay thank you so much for the tutorage..  i havent had my FCL stay this high for 5 days in almost two years.!!

You are welcome. If I can be of further help just let me know.

smallpool posted this 26 August 2022

Oh my lord i think we got this licked.   Since my last post of 10 FCL it got to 7 the next day.   i turned the SWG back on.   the next day was 6 and today it is 4.   In all the days readings the CCL is below 0.5   i think we licked it!

PH 7.6
CYA 52
ALK 94
HARD 174

My PHOS is still 3,000  (should i focus on that next season or just leave it alone?)

here is something curious..  my SpinTouch says my SALT = 2892.  My Aquarite control panel says 3,600 (yesterday said 3,500).  Ive never had that wide a gap of SALT (and the salt went up on the aquarite thats impossible).   i think my Aquarite salt reading is bad.

why do i care about the salt?  because i'm running the SWG at 70% and i'm dropping slowly from 7..6..5..4..  so i either need to turn up the SWG a little or add more salt if the 2,800 reading is correct?

Jay thank you so much for the tutorage..  i havent had my FCL stay this high for 5 days in almost two years.!!

 

JCMC70 posted this 22 August 2022

Great news. And if the organics have been killed the CCL shouldn't tick up like that.

Check the free chlorine tonight using the Taylor kit and again in the morning using the Taylor kit. If the chlorine loss is 1 ppm or less, do the combined chlorine test using the Taylor kit. I know it will give an accurate reading.

Then do a combined chlorine test using the Spintouch. If they aren't the same, the Spintouch is giving inaccurate readings.

 I can already see that with the difference in free chlorine readings.

And 27 drops on the Taylor kit is 13.5 ppm free chlorine.

Also, don't trust the PH reading with chlorine levels that high. And don't adjust the PH until the overnight chlorine loss test is 1 ppm or less AND the combined chlorine test is .5 ppm or less and the free chlorine drops back down to the 7 ppm it should be.

j

smallpool posted this 22 August 2022

OK update here..  took 2 days of checking every 4 hours or so.. needed to add about one gallon of chlorine to keep it over 23 for the two days..  then i did the overnight test and it dropped  about 2 ppm (close but not enough) so i did it another day.   this saturday night overnight it dropped less than 1 and CCL 0.3.   Success?   I had the pump running all day sunday with SWG off as i am now letting the FCL to drop back down to 7.     I just checked it this morning monday  and the FCL = 10.5 on my Spintouch and 27 drops ( about 13 FCL) using the 1515 kit.   However my CCL now is 1.31 on my Spintouch.

is that normal that the CCL will tick up as havent added any shock for over 36 hours and the SWG has been off?

CYA 53..  PH 7.3   PHOS 2923


JCMC70 posted this 18 August 2022

Ok.
It just occurred to me that the FAS/DPD kit you ordered came with 3/4oz bottle of R-871 reagent. Given that you are gonna be testing for up to 23 ppm of chlorine each time, you are gonna be using up to 46 drops of the R-871 reagent on each test. The 3/4oz bottle probably won’t be enough. Taylor has a 2oz bottle of R-871. It’s R-871C. If you have a local pool store see if they will order you the R-871C bottle. If not you can find it at Amazon or you can go to taylortechnologies.com and order it from them.

You will have enough of the FAS powder.

 

When you get ready to start, the first thing you need to do is lower the PH to 7.2. We will do this with Muriatic acid. If you don’t have any Muriatic acid you can find it at pool stores, big box building supply stores or janitorial supply stores.

If you have 14.5% MA you will need approximately 46 ounces.

If you have 31.45% MA you will need approximately 26 ounces.

But don’t add it all at once.

With the pump running, slowly pour 1/2 the amount in front of a return jet in the deep end. Don’t breathe the fumes.

Leave the pump running and in about a hour check the PH. If it is still above 7.2, add half of the remaining amount, wait for another hour and check the PH level again.

Keep doing this until you get to 7.2…and no lower than 7.0.

 

Once that is done you can begin the process.

The pump must run continuously until the process is complete.

You should brush the pool liner every day during the process.

Keep a close check on the filter pressure and when it says it needs to be backwashed do it.

  1. With the pump running, turn the SWG OFF.
  2. Take a free chlorine reading with the Taylor kit.
  3. Subtract the free chlorine reading from 23.
  4. Add enough liquid chlorine to bring the chlorine level up to 23 ppm.(in your pool you will need to add 13oz of 10% chlorine for each 1 ppm you need). Slowly pour the chlorine in front of a return jet in the deep end.
  5. Wait a couple of hours and take a new free chlorine reading. Subtract that number from 23 and add enough liquid chlorine to get the level back to 23 ppm.

       NOTE: You can do this several times during the day depending on how much free    

                    chlorine you are losing between readings. But you must do this at least 

                     twice a day, once in the evening before sundown and again in the

                    morning near sun up.

As you continually add chlorine you will notice that you are losing less and less free chlorine between readings.

  1. When you reach the point where you are losing 1 ppm of free chlorine or less between the evening and morning readings you are ready to check for combined chlorine. After you do the free chlorine reading in the AM, put 5 drops of the R0003 reagent in the test water. If the sample turns pink, add the R-871 reagent drop wise until the sample turns clear. If it takes more than 1 drop of R-871 you have 1 ppm or more of combined chlorine and you need to continue the SLAM. 

 

Once you get to the point where you are losing 1 ppm or less of free chlorine overnight AND the combined chlorine reading is .5 ppm or less AND the water is clear, you are finished with the SLAM.

 

At this point you can put the pump back on the timer but leave the SWG turned off until the chlorine level naturally drifts down to 7 ppm. 

While the chlorine is drifting down you will need to bring the PH level back up to 7.4 - 7.6. You can do this with ordinary baking soda.

 

Once the free chlorine level reaches 7 ppm you can turn the SWG back on and check the free chlorine level in the early morning. If it is below 7 ppm try turning the SWG percentage up until it produces 7 ppm of free chlorine.

If you can’t get to 7 ppm of free chlorine at 100% on the SWG, you will need to run the pump longer. Or you could just supplement the chlorine that the SWG will generate with liquid chlorine.

 

If you have any questions before you start or during the process, let me know.

j

smallpool posted this 17 August 2022

Okay i got the 1515A kit.   And i tested it by adding about 3/4 of a gallon of 10% liquid chlorine to it..  tested it an hour later with the kit i needed 12 drops to get the pink clear.  so thats about 6 ppm.   very close to the formula you gave me above to get to 7ppm.

So i guess im ready to SLAM.  i have ten gallons of liquid.   i will only start this process when i know i will be home for 2 days so i can keep testing it..  my other readings are nearly the same as my last post.   except i got my salt up to 3030.  CYA now is 57.  ph 7.8

thank you!

 

 

JCMC70 posted this 14 August 2022

Pool chlorine comes in sodium hypochlorite concentrations of 8%-10% and 12%.

The initial dose of chlorine for an 8% concentration would be 2 gallons, 3 quarts and 1 cup.

For a 10% concentration it would be 2 gallons.

For a 12% concentration, 1 gallon, 2 quarts, 2 cups.

You will probably need to get additional liquid chlorine, but I can't tell you how much until you start the SLAM.

BUT first you are gonna need a test kit that can test for those high levels of chlorine. A FAS/DPD kit will do that.

The Taylor K1515A test kit will do that. The K1515A only tests for free and combined chlorine. You can get one 

Here 

If you wan a full FAS/DPD kit my recommendation would be the Taylor K2006 or the TF-100.

You can't start the SLAM until you have a kit that handle the high chlorine level. And the FAS/DPD test can detect chlorine levels up to 50 ppm. Once you have that we can start the SLAM process.

 In the meantime you need to keep a FC level of 7 ppm in the water. To do that, every evening about sundown and with the pump running, take a chlorine reading. And then add enough liquid chlorine to raise the chlorine level to 7 ppm.

In your pool you can raise the chlorine level 1 ppm by adding:

15oz of 8% chlorine.

13oz of 10% chlorine or 

10oz of 12% chlorine.

Do that every day until you get the FAS/DPD kit. Then come back and we can start the SLAM process.

smallpool posted this 14 August 2022

well the online specs say the FCL range is 0 - 15.  I once got a reading of 15.7 on it when i put 4 bags of shock in it.  But it also says  the range for PHOS is 0 - 2000 but mine is saying 3,000 right now so probably it can read higher than the spec sheet is my bet.

just as a heads up for me.. how many gallons of liquid chlorine am i going to need?  i want to make sure i get to the store..

JCMC70 posted this 14 August 2022

Hello again,

Phosphates are only a problem when you have organics in the water (which the CCL number of 2.64 ppm says you have) but they are only an issue in so far as they provide food for the organics. The best way to deal with this is to kill the organics in the water. You do this by super chlorinating (SLAMMING) the water and maintaining the SLAM chlorine level until the organics are dead. That's what I believe your next step should be.

The chlorine SLAM level for your pool with 58 ppm of CYA is 23 ppm of chlorine.

 I can give you detailed instructions to do that. But you are going to need a test method that can test for chlorine levels that high. Can your Waterlink spin touch read chlorine levels (23 ppm) that high?

smallpool posted this 14 August 2022

Okay after draining about 1/3 last week and 1/3 friday and refilling here are my stats now after running my Hayward cell T-3 on 70%.  10,0000 gallon pool.   the Tcell is brand new this year.

FCL 0.36  TCL 3.00  CCL 2.64
PH 7.9  ALK 103  HARD 180
CYA 58  Copper 0.0  Iron 0.0 
PHOS 3002
SALT 2812  (my auquarite reads 3200)   i just put 1/2 bag more in this morning

i'm not surprised by this reading on practically 50% brand new water in the past week.   FCL non existent.   this has been my problem the past two seasons.   If i was to put one bag of Hypo in it i bet the FCL would shoot up but then disappear the next day.

how did my PHOS not change at all!?!?   

JCMC70 i have procured 5 gallons of liquid pool chlorine (10% sodium hypo) and i have access to get more anytime.

i own my own Spintouch and get do the chemistry instantly.

Do we still think this is not a Phoshpate problem?

JCMC70 posted this 26 July 2022

I'm sorry. That's my bad. There isn't any reason that I can think of why you shouldn't be able to drain 1/3 of the water from an in ground pool. I drain about 1/3 of the water from my pool every fall.

Your should be able to drain the water using the pool's pump. I don't know what type of filter you have, but it should have a multi port valve. Just set the valve to Drain or Waste and turn the pump on.

smallpool posted this 25 July 2022

i'm so sorry JCM70..  its not an above ground pool..  its in groun pool.  i have 2 skimmers and one "dual drain" at the bottom of the deep end..    when i said "cave in" i mean more like the bottom and sides popping up..

 

JCMC70 posted this 25 July 2022

Ok. So it must be an above ground pool.

You have at least a couple of options.

1. Drain water from the pool as you put water in the pool. To do this you will need a small sump pump or a pool cover pump for above ground pools. Lower the cover pump or the suction line to the small sump pump into the pool to a level not more than about 3 feet below the top of the pool. Attach a water hose to the cover pump or the drain connection on the sump pump and run it to wherever you want to drain the water. Next put a water hose connected to a spigot into the pool at the current waterline.Turn the spigot on and turn the pump on. The lower water with CYA in it will be pumped out and the fresh water will be added to the top of the waterline.

2. Drain an amount of water that you are comfortable won't collapse the walls and then refill the water and repeat until the CYA level reaches the desired point.

j

smallpool posted this 25 July 2022

i have a Haward T Cell 3 and an Aquarite module.. i'm on the hayward website and i'm in the manual i cannot find how much chlorine it generates for given run time..

smallpool posted this 25 July 2022

While i am here.. do you have any links to posts on draining water?  all think about is that i would lower the water level and then my pool would cave in..

 

smallpool posted this 25 July 2022

Thank you!   yes, you told me about the Di Chlor CYA thing but it was too late..  i had done it already..  :-(   

i will report back when CYA is lower.   thank you..

 

JCMC70 posted this 25 July 2022

"70% SWG dial, runs 11 hours a day.  the satl cell is 2 months old.. i replaced it thinking it wasnt working.    i dont know much it adds daily how do i learn that?"

The documentation with the SWG should include a chart that shows how much chlorine is produced @ a X% dial setting for X hours of runtime.

"this was the first time i added Di Chlor because in my research i heard it was bad for vinyl.  what i didnt know is that it jacks up my CYA."

 I told you in one of my posts in your other topic what adding that much Di-chlor would do to the CYA level.

Unfortunately, the CYA level in your water has reached an untenable point. A CYA level of 130 ppm requires a chlorine level of 14 ppm be maintained just to sanitize the water. I don't think Maintaining a 14 ppm chlorine level is something that any SWG is designed to do. So the maximum chlorine that the SWG could generate would need to be supplemented by another type of chlorine. As you have learned, that is expensive. And in my opinion it's unsafe to keep chlorine levels that high.

You are going to have to get the CYA level down to an acceptable range before you will be able to properly balance the water. And then you should be able to see how much chlorine your SWG produces daily(if the documentation doesn't tell you). The documentation for the SWG may tell you what they recommend for the CYA level for their generator. If the documentation doesn't give that information, most/all pool water experts recommend a CYA level for SWGs of 60 - 80 ppm.

There are only 2 ways that I know of to lower CYA levels :

1. Drain water from the pool and replace it with fresh water. This is the method most used.

2. Find someone who can perform a reverse osmosis process. My understanding is that this process is very expensive.

If you decide to drain and replace water, I would start with 1/3 of the pool volume or about 3,500 gallons. Then get a CYA reading. If it is within the 60 - 80 ppm range, you are good. If it's still above 80 ppm continue to drain water at about 500 gallons and take another CYA reading.

After you have gotten the CYA level in line, if you still need help come back with fresh test readings and let us know.

j

smallpool posted this 25 July 2022

70% SWG dial, runs 11 hours a day.  the satl cell is 2 months old.. i replaced it thinking it wasnt working.    i dont know much it adds daily how do i learn that?

i have my own WaterLink spin touch at my house.  yes i bought one two years ago.

one week ago reading:  FCL, 0.18, TCL 0.34, CCL 0.16.  PH 7.7  ALK 108.  HARD 273.. CYA 81.  Copper 0.0  Iron 0.0  Phos: 3,248  SALT 3248.

i added 4 lbs of Di Chlor and it became: FCL 15.3  TCL 17.1 CCL 1.81 PH 6.7 ALK 77 HARD 238  CYA 127  Phos 3145  salt 2770

this was the first time i added Di Chlor because in my research i heard it was bad for vinyl.  what i didnt know is that it jacks up my CYA.  okay lesson learned

today just now i am back to FCL 0.5, TCL 0.9, CCL 0.36  PH 7.0 ALK 84 HARD 250 CYA 138 Phos 3220  Salt 3166

its just blowing my mind that i can go from 15 FCL to almost zero so fast..  so my last ditch was its the phosphates.

I know i just dug a bigger hole for myself with the CYA now elevated..  but i was just so desperate to get the FCL up.  thank you for your advice.   FWIW my pool is always crystal clear.  no algae anywhere.  everybody thinks my pool is perfect (except for me).

 

 

 

JCMC70 posted this 25 July 2022

Hello again,

Phosphates aren't a concern if you keep enough chlorine in the water. From what I can gather from your 2 posts I don't think you are chlorinating your water to the proper level.

What % do you have the SWG set at?

How long does the pump run per day?

And how much chlorine does that add to the water daily?

Can you provided a current set of test reading and are you testing the water yourself? If you are testing yourself, what are you using? If you aren't testing yourself, how is the water being tested?

j

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